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BAUS
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   Posted 9/7/2005 2:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
A few days ago I was looking thru some NFL lines and came across New England -275 (moneyline). So I bet that line and my balance changed accordingly and I thought everything was fine.

10 minutes later I log back into my account and notice there is no pending wagers.

I call in to WWTS and Nigel tells me he cancelled my wager. He also emailed me this:

Please note that you money line wager on the New England Patriots -275 was deleted due to an incorrect line. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.



Nigel S
Bet Manager
Tasman Gaming Inc.



At the time I thought "Maybe he is right. Fine." But now when I look around more I see that CRIS has NE at -300. So I'm starting to think that I probably found a good opening line, and they simply didn't like it and cancelled my bet.

So what do the members of TOW think about this one??

BAUS
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TOW
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   Posted 9/7/2005 2:35 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BAUS,

This is the second complaint of this kind in less than 24 hours. I've send this thread to WWTS for review and comment.

Thank you for your patience.
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Judge
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   Posted 9/7/2005 4:27 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
They have gone downhill steadily recently.
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Halifax
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   Posted 9/7/2005 5:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If someone else had -300, then -275 can't be considered to be a "bad line".  There's a big difference between a "bad line", and a line that the book never meant to put up.  In my opinion, if the line is reasonable compared to what other books have up, then it can't be considered to be a "bad line", even if the book never really meant to hang that line.
 
BetJamaica cancelled a bet on me a couple of months ago ... I bet a baseball moneyline at +128.  They claimed that they meant to put up -128/+118 (which they probably did), but instead they put up -138/+128.  Even so, there were +124s around at the time, so it's tough to justify using the "bad line" rule on a +128 line. 

Post Edited (Halifax) : 9/7/2005 5:29:00 PM (GMT-4)

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Judge
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   Posted 9/7/2005 5:52 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Cris still has 300. I am betting that when the line went from 7 to 7' they didn't move the $ line. No reason to cancel a bet.
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Judge
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   Posted 9/7/2005 5:53 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lol, Cris just moved to 325.
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lucifer
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   Posted 9/8/2005 6:05 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I had a similar problem with WWTS about 3-4 years ago...put a few hundred on a college basketball game 4 the next day, I'm a night person and it was an early sat tipoff...line opened around 1'.... when I woke up game was at halftime...line had moved to -5' before game....after game shows up as win on account....go to place another wager....basically a double thru with the money I originally bet and the winnings....came home later thinking I doubled up twice in one day....look in my emails first, get a we regret to inform you note....bastards cancelled both bets....and both were winners....never bet thru them again!!!!!
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D2bets
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   Posted 9/8/2005 9:39 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Not to prejudge a case that could come before the panel, but this is an absolute clear-cut case. The cancellation was unwarranted. -275 when the market range is -300 to -350 is not a bad line by any stretch of the imagination.
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TOW
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   Posted 9/8/2005 9:43 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I honestly hope to have the case resolved without the need of the player having to file with the panel. As D2bets clearly stated its a clear-cut case. I should be hearing from WWTS later this morning.
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Tony
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   Posted 9/8/2005 10:10 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Just for mistakefreaked  all shops should give back like a $50 free play or something, I don’t really like when it come to cancel a bet. 


 

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D2bets
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   Posted 9/8/2005 10:34 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Let me amend my statement...it is possible for it to be a bad line IF, for example, the other side was out of whack. So if the line read +300/-275 then it is a patent error that could be cnacelled within a reasonable time frame. But if the + side was less than the - then it is not a bad line.
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BAUS
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   Posted 9/8/2005 1:03 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
D2bets: I don't remember what the line on Oakland was, but it was the normal juice. It must have been around +225...something in line with their standard juice.

BAUS

Post Edited (BAUS) : 9/8/2005 4:52:44 PM (GMT-4)

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Jerseymike
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   Posted 9/8/2005 10:47 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
It wasn't a wrong line,It was a slow line.
 
-300 you layed -275. What is so wrong about that?
 
That to me is called ..Line shopping...


Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?

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TOW
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   Posted 9/9/2005 10:52 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
BAUS,

Please check your pm. Thank you.
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merlyn
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   Posted 9/9/2005 11:23 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Though the world is not black and white, when we view this type of activity (bet cancellation), there emerges two types of books.
 
Book Type A realizes that the bet they accepted was, in fact, based on a line they intentionally posted at some point prior in time and somehow did not pay proper attention to market movement (if that is a factor in line adjustment).  Book Type A cancels the bet and claims the "bad line" out...
 
Book Type B may make the same mistake but looks at the situation like this.  First, if we apply a few realistic assumptions such as I have lllustrated below, then error might mean the following to the book...
 
Let's say the current (market) line is -325 / +275.  This translates to a "juiceless" line of -287.  -287 = 74.14%  -275 = 73.33%.  The difference is .81% which is the edge the customer has obtained if, indeed, the actual true "juiceless line" for this event is correctly reflected by the now market price of -325 / +275.  If the player's combined risk and win amount equals $5000, then the error represents a loss to the book of $40.56.
 
Book B looks at the situation like this... They asses the true loss.  They address the error internally and make corrections to proceedures (or, if this happens all too often, make necessary personel changes) and the player's bet not only stands, but the player will never even know that the bet was an unwanted wager. 
 
To handle this any other way is the sign of what I call a "psuedo book" which is really in the business of marketing and selling product to the less informed.  That is not bookmaking. 
 
Either WWTS does not currently possess the experience to understand this situation or, they have decided to take this and other similar opportunities to "send a signal" to their clientelle that they are only interested in booking pure squares.  Likely, WWTS understands this error, in the big picture, is insignificant (unless this is a common error on their part due to sloppy risk management).  What is additionally likely is that they have made an internal decision to let the betting community know that WWTS is not interested in action from informed and/or educated bettors.
 
More and more this industry is emerging into these two, very distinct paths.  The only hope for the Type A books is that they continue to cultivate business from the world of the uninformed.  Likely Book Type B will more and more make this harder to accomplish.
 
See math below:
-275 73.33% 70.44%
225 30.77%
104.10%
3.94%
-325 76.47% 74.14% -287
275 26.67%
103.14%
3.04%
0.81%
 $  5,000
 $  40.56
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slash
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   Posted 9/9/2005 12:21 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Did anyone check their MLB openers (1½ hours ago)??? Some of the lines were waaaay off... not that it was the case here.


 

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BAUS
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   Posted 9/9/2005 12:49 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Very good analysis Merlyn. Makes a lot of sense.

Of course NE won last night.

BAUS
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merlyn
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   Posted 9/9/2005 2:04 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, easier to analyze than have it happen to you...
 
And on your second comment...  Of Course... and that cannot be demonstrated by math but is known as an "Of Course it would win... as that is the way the Gods of Gambling love to work."  Can't help ya on that one.  But I would withdraw all my funds, close my account and post on all forums what happened the minute a book pulled this on me.

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Shaun
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   Posted 9/9/2005 2:43 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Has WTTS commented on this? I'm curious to hear what they have to say.

I was gonna use them this winter but maybe not now.....


Manage the Book, not the Player

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BAUS
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   Posted 9/9/2005 3:32 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm still waiting also....

BAUS
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tahoeclown
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   Posted 9/10/2005 9:17 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
just informed jessica this post existed merlin that post just summed up modern bookmaking 101 in a nut shell o yeah all the type b books start bopoker u dont see grandepoker pinnypoker... vote with your money vote at grande pinnacle with real bm jazz mansion del mar any more
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Judge
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   Posted 9/10/2005 11:04 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
More and more books seem to be canceling bets to compensate for their own laziness.


We few, we happy few, we band of brothers

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Dr Black
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   Posted 9/10/2005 2:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I started dealing with wwts when Bill Scott was the owner and it was phone-in only. They were one of the first to open an internet book. While Bill was there they were the best book online. Highest limits and decent lines. That was because Bill was an old fashioned bookmaker who learned his craft in the tough but fair bookshops of midwestern U.S.  Service has rapidly declined since wwts was sold a few years ago to Betcorp Ltd. They have deteriorated from the original Type B to a typical Type A.

Two examples: Golf matchups are always 30 cent lines. Pinnacle uses 10 cent spreads and post lines two days earlier.

                     Friday Sept. 9 I liked a halftime line on a Sunday NFL game. In the good old days, Bill would take as much as 5000 on the play. Betcorp would only take 300.

Elsewhere on this site are the financial statements of Betcorp for 04 and 05. They tell everything we need to know about wwts.

Go to home page and use keyword wwts.

By the way, there is a simpler way to look at the cost to wwts of allowing the (let's say) $200 bet to stand.  If a line is 275/325, the favorite is expected to win approx. three times in every four games. Wwts will pay out $600 on the 3 wins and take in $550 on the 1 loss. Expected loss is $50 divided by 4 games, or $12.50 per game. What price do you put on your reputation and customer good will ? 

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BAUS
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   Posted 9/10/2005 2:49 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Still waiting....

How long does it take for them to offer up an explaination?

BAUS
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Dr Black
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   Posted 9/10/2005 6:40 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
They know they done wrong.
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