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TOW
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 		    Posted 8/4/2005 8:09 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Guys,
 
I feel really bad for what has happened to you guys at BCN. Your bets were legit and whomever says the contrary is a moron.
 
You guys have been called all sorts of names because of reasons that have nothing to do with your situation but rather with advertisement contracts.
 
The latest stunt, the proposed mediation, sets the worst precedent in the recent history of bookmaking. Should any of you guys accept the indecent proposal made, any sports book would feel entitled to cancel bets because of their lack of knowledge, lack of bookmaking skills, or plain and simple dishonesty just invoking the 'bad line" rule.
 
Sometimes books make obvious mistakes that can be identified as "bad lines". When those cases occur almost everyone agrees on cancellation. But the prop you guys bet was NOT a bad line, was a STALE line.
 
Any respected bookmaker would have eaten it and moved on. Smaller ones would have tried to partially lay the risk off (the overall amount of the wagers placed is so ridicolous that BCN could have easily layed off at 35/30 to 1).
 
What has happened with your case is the direct reason for which BCN's banner has been pulled from this site. And it will never go up again.
 
I feel bad because I believed this start up had the numbers to make it. I feel bad because I had their banner up for months, but just like with the Mybookie case, when a situation like this occurs, I am not available to ignore it and provide visibility to an operation that could damage players and, in the long run, the reputation of this site.
 
TheOffshoreWire and TOW Forum do NOT support players who try to scam books. At the same time we do not support books that try to scam players. We are here to provide visibility to good operations and assist honest players who find themselves in bad situations. This is our mission.
 
I wish you guys the best of luck this Football season.
 
Roberto
 
 
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raiders72001
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 		    Posted 8/4/2005 8:25 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
While I agree that the book is wrong in this case and that the players should be paid there are some circumstances in this case which can lead to the belief that some of these guys are shot takers. I also believe that two of the players are shot takers and work together.
 
I agree that the lines were stale and not bad in this case. It has been reported that two of these players have had bets cancelled under similar circumstances at two other books and two players are involved in all of these cases.
 
All these players first went to the RX for help and the RX reported that they were taking down the BCN due to this case when in fact the banner was being taken down because the contract between BCN and the RX had expired. Also one of the mods did receive a referral fee from at least one player involved.
 
If I had to make a decision in this case I would rule in favor of the players. Because of all the circumstances involved I do not feel sorry for the players because of their history. Either decision would not have bothered me personally.
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RPM
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 		    Posted 8/4/2005 9:01 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
GREAT POST TOW.
 
i certainly hope these guys dont continue to play at bcn.
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kermit
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 		    Posted 8/4/2005 9:05 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I have not read any of these recent  posts at Major Wager but I will tell you this right now. I have been gambling in Reno, Vegas for about 20 years and I have been gambling on the Internet for over 10 years. The Intervention that Fishhead did for me was the very first time I had Ever taken a matter to be mediated. Shrink helped me to no avail when Jeff Pierson stiffed Me for $ 4000 with his bogus Luckys Sportsbook. I still have his bogus check !Of course Red Eye and I were just one of thousands that got stiffed on that one. I also got stiffed by Aces Gold but who didn't ? I never received any guarantee from Major as some people are led to believe. If Red Eye did, that is news to me but I guess if it was offered by Major Wager... go for it. Just exactly what are We accused of doing because I have never ever been involved in any scam but I will always feel free to express myself in a public forum like this if I see I am being treated improperly. I can tall some really class stories about how I have been treated by Sportsbooks and I can tell you bad tales. I have to prepare Dinner and then I will see what the posters have said at MW and I will answer all questions honestly in both forums as I always do. Please hold back any negative opinions until I can respond. Shrinks knows me way back when Jeff Pierson was telling me on the phone that He was sending someone over to my front porch and " Whack me off" Guess what I'm still here and I still am not a gang member or a scam artist.
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raiders72001
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 		    Posted 8/4/2005 10:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Kermit- I do feel that you are wronged in this case and I am glad that you are willing to answer questions on this. Have you had bets cancelled in the past by books? What was the reason for these bets being cancelled and by which books? Thanks
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kermit
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 12:40 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Woops I goofed already ! I am not familiear with this forum and I was posting an answer and I guess I hit new subject and I am at the top of the page with no subject. I'm not a computer whizz
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RPM
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 12:55 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

posted by kermit....

 

 

 

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kermit
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 12:32 AM (GMT -5)    Make This Thread Sticky.Lock This Thread.Ban kermit and Lock Access.Ban IP : 207.200.116.6Edit post (Moderator Function)Delete post (Moderator Function)Quote This PostIgnore Posts From kermit.alert<b></b> An Admin about<b></b> This Post.
Well I'm not sure but I think I have also been banned at Major Wager because I started to try and answer all his lies about me. This is the very first time I have ever tried to get a moderator to help me out. I did not go to the forum but first went to Fishhead to have him try to solve this matter. My wagers at BCN were simply canceled ! No e-mails or nothing. I e-mailed BCN 4 times with no answer. The last e-mail I said if I didn't get a answer, I would take it to a moderator. Fishhead tried for about 4 days to resolve this matter but Eric at BCN would not move and told Fish to go ahead and take it to the Forum is the way I understood it. I did not take it to the forums as I was on a business trip while most of this was going on.
Bets canceled by other books ? Well, I'm not sure you would call it canceled but Bodog took my money on a fight wager when the fight ended in a draw. I took the copy of the ticket to the Stardust as I live here in Vegas and the Sportsbook Manager told me that all of their wagers were refunded. If there is not a draw proposition in the wager, then if the fight ends in a draw.. all funds are refunded. However in Bodog case, they kept everyone's Money. However, I never went to any mediation and simply lost my Money. I still have an account there but I will never bet a fight there. I had a wager at Royal in which it was written " will there be Hockey played in the NHL in 2005. Of course I was betting that the strike would be settled and that We would have Hockey in the 2004/2005 season. However if a guy wanted to be a jerk, We could have said the ticket didn't specify when in 2005 Hockey would be played. However Royal canceled the wager and they didn't hear any peep out of me. Fair is fair and I understood what they most likely meant. Of course I lost $ 4000 to Jeff Pierson's Luckys and also lost $$ at Aces Gold but so did everyone else.
Now for my feel good story
Many years ago probably around 1993, I was pretty much a small time gambler with an account at Carib. I made a wager on a game and I thought I had won and the score was canceled. It was a $ 33. wager and I called up and the Manager said to me. That was a bad line ! I really didn't know anything about a bad line because at that time Carib was about the only Book on the Internet. However the Manager said to me I noticed that you had plenty of funds in your account and you didn't bet any more than your normal wager so I am going to score that game a win for you. Now I will never forget that Book and that is what I call great customer relations.
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raiders72001
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 12:59 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lots of horror stories on recreational books keeping draw money in boxing without offering 3 way action. I just read the rules at BoDog and they are unclear on the rules. This is one of the bets that I hate the most.
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RPM
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 1:01 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
KERMIT,
 
just stay away from places that care more for advertisers than they do for the players and you will be ok.
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raiders72001
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 1:11 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Kermit- Bannings mean nothing. I've been banned from the RX when I was only posting in the RR because they didn't like my posts. And they say that anything goes in the RR. LOL
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RPM
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 1:13 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
raiders,
 
yeah, but to be banned becuase you were screwed by a book is pathetic.
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kermit
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 1:20 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Being banned by Major Wajor is indeed a compliment IMHO  I feel good about myself and I will sleep well tonight which reminds me that it is 10:20 Vegas time and I've got to work tomorrow. Thanks for all the nice comments here.
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RPM
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 2:31 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
kermit,
 
hope to see you around here more often....
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kermit
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 10:32 AM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'll be around and hopefully talking about more pleasant subjects !
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Shaun
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 1:12 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Somebody said...
TheOffshoreWire and TOW Forum do NOT support players who try to scam books. At the same time we do not support books that try to scam players.


Could someone give me an example of a player trying to scam a book? I'm not sure how that would work.
Are you talking about bonus hunting or arb betting or betting bad lines?

Manage the Book, not the Player

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TOW
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 1:14 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Shaun,

There are players that fund their accounts and then if they lose charge back. That's the most common case of players scamming books. Others try to take advantage of software glitches to bet over the limits and so on.
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Shaun
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 4:11 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TOW said...
Sometimes books make obvious mistakes that can be identified as "bad lines". When those cases occur almost everyone agrees on cancellation. But the prop you guys bet was NOT a bad line, was a STALE line.


Tow,

BCN (and Major) claim the line was bad, while others claim the line was stale.

When the players placed their wagers, were they aware that the line was very off from the rest of the market?

At what point does a stale line become a bad line?


Please remember I am fairly new to the offshore industry smurf

Manage the Book, not the Player

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raiders72001
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 4:50 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
imo a stale line is almost never a bad line. Bad lines are typos.
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TOW
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 5:39 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Shaun,

First of all we have to remember that cancelled wagers were futures.

The value of a future fluctuates from book to book and from day to day. In this specific case a "bad line" would have been the As 10,000 to 1 when the market was ranging between 200 to 1 and 50 to 1.

In this specific case the market was between 40 to 1 and 20 to 1 and BCN's line was 100 to 1. This is a stale line, but MOST definitely not a bad line.

What made the situation worse, and clearly showed that risk management was fast asleep, were the two adjustments that followed the first "hit", 90 to 1 and then 70 to 1. My guess is that the wagers were cancelled after whomever in charge verified that even 70 to 1 was a top price on the current market.
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nana1908
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 6:19 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
tow why do you think the major thinks its a bad line? because they are an advertiser?because his dislike for the rx?because he feels the players are shot takers?or does he really feel it was a bad line? I just think people forgive easy when the mistake is admitted but when denied , forget it..im just trying to see his point of view but i never can everytime i read his threads he seems so anti player and totally insults people.I cant figure it out.
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RPM
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 6:20 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
because they are an advertiser. he sides with advertisers all the time.
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nana1908
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 6:24 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
thats the only answer i could figure out.when does honesty and integrity come into play?
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RPM
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 6:28 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
when you visit WWW.THEOFFSHOREWIRE.COM AND TOWFORUM.COM
 
 
 
smilewinkgrin 
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FISHHEAD
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 6:37 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
nana1908 said...
     because they are an advertiser?          because his dislike for the rx?       because he feels the players are shot takers?        or does he really feel it was a bad line?     
 
 
To answer your questions..........
 
Yes...........Business before honesty
 
Yes...........Jeolousy
 
Yes...........Ignorance
 
Yes...........Once again, ignorance
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TheGuesser
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 		    Posted 8/5/2005 9:53 PM (GMT -5)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The biggest way players scam books is the multiple identity scam. One person refers multiple others, gets multiple referral bonuses, and is really controlling all the accounts. The other identities may be real or imagined, often times "cousins" or "roomates" that just happen to be betting from the same PC. But one person controls the accounts, and is able to circumvent limits, collect multiple bonuses while scalping out the accounts, etc. It's called the iwinoridie or the sick gambler maneuver in the offshore sports betting dictionary, among other names :) ). That's why referral bonuses are a blight and should have been ended long ago.
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